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Talk:Hashirama Senju
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique Hashirama shoud be listed as a user because he created the scroll of seals, which contains the Jutsu... OK?--Omojuze (talk) 11:38, January 15, 2012 (UTC) :It was actually never said that he created it, but came to possess it. In any case it is possible to be able to teach something in principle and not be able to perform it yourself. And there's always the possibility that more that one person contributed to the scroll.--Cerez365™ 11:54, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Well, since he had the scroll and was a 2nd Hokage, it's likely he knew how to perform it since Shadow Clone Technique is a common Jounin one, but he was never seen using it nor it was said to be a signature ability of his. --Elveonora (talk) 16:15, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Unique Ability Addition Shouldn't Tailed Beast Control be added as a unique ability of his? I can't recall there being anything that said that his ability to do so stemmed from Wood Release. Edit Well, other than other than really long name no jutsu. xD I forgot about that. Skitts (talk) 17:21, January 22, 2012 (UTC) :It stems from his Wood Release kekkei genkai, so it should already be mentioned there. Though I might've misinterpreted what you mean.--Cerez365™ 17:34, January 22, 2012 (UTC) Other than that technique, do you know if that was specifically stated anywhere? Just wondering. The second paragraph of his Nature Transformation section also seems to be referring to it as a distinct ability of his as well, if I'm reading it correctly. Oh, and by adding it, I meant to the unique ability part of his infobox. Like how the Ultimate Summoning Animal has chakra absorption in its. Skitts (talk) 17:39, January 22, 2012 (UTC) :Ah I was searching for it. It's chapter 291 pages 15 onwards in orochimaru's dialogue. Though I think we might need a direct translation, I don't think the two abilities are mutually exclusive although he does say gift(s).--Cerez365™ 17:47, January 22, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, I don't think they are mutually exclusive either, I just couldn't remember it being stated that Wood Release was sole reason he could do so. Skitts (talk) 17:56, January 22, 2012 (UTC) I requested that ShounenSuki translate what Orochimari said on that page by the way. Skitts (talk) 23:53, January 22, 2012 (UTC) Equipment I've just spotted a set of swords and a giant shuriken, possibly fuma shuriken, in this picture. He seems to have used them during his fight against Madara. Should we list him as a user of said weapons and add an equipment section? -- (talk) 03:24, January 31, 2012 (UTC) :Read this.--Cerez365™ 06:17, January 31, 2012 (UTC) :: Yes, he did use the giant sword in this OVA, which seems to be the extension of the said screenshot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFzGNNummXg -- (talk) 22:11, February 26, 2012 (UTC) :It's a game though. They're allowed creative license. He's already been tagged as a sword user.--Cerez365™ 22:13, February 26, 2012 (UTC) Sentence Mash up In the introduction to Hashirama's Abilities section, there's a rather odd sentence that doesn't sound like it's written correctly: "Kabuto commented that Hashirama is stronger than Madara Uchiha and the union between the two of them, and that his might was so vast that there weren't any shinobi in the current era that could match his level of power but also that many considered his prowess to be a mere fairy tale much like the existence of the Sage of the Six Paths." Namely, when I read the first part about the "union between the two of them", it sounds like it's saying that Kabuto said that even after the union of his DNA into Madara's own, that Hashirama was still superior. Really, the whole sentence (which seems too long for a single one) is rather odd to me. Mind if I edit it to make it flow better? Skitts (talk) 18:54, February 23, 2012 (UTC) OVA Uhm i recently saw on Youtube an OVA showing Hashirama and Madara's fight which is a reward of sorts in the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm Generation. Should it be considered canon on some way? I ask because it had then fight and do some techniques, soo any opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 23:42, February 23, 2012 (UTC) :I think OVA stuff would fall under anime only but if it's part of the game then it's game only. A user was adding him to a few of them yesterday I believe so it should be fine.--Cerez365™ 23:48, February 23, 2012 (UTC) ::I wouldn't say it's an OVA. It's more like an anime-style cut-scene. Pierrot did several for this came. Omnibender - Talk - 23:51, February 23, 2012 (UTC) ::: Actually it's an OVA for when someone finishes the story mode of the game, a "reward" of sorts...or at least so i heard. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:57, February 23, 2012 (UTC) ::::I think it'd still fall under game if it's in the game though.--Cerez365™ 00:04, February 24, 2012 (UTC) :::::Let me guess...wait until other forms of confirmation...Darksusanoo (talk) 00:05, February 24, 2012 (UTC) I remember reading that these original animation scenes are for the games story mode. According to Saiyan Island this is one of those cutscenes. Tobi/Madara is one of the playable characters for story mode, so maybe it's one of his cutscenes? I even if it isn't, I think it was just made for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously. They even made of Itachi vs Kisame and Sage Mode Naruto and Sasuke for the game.--''Deva '' 00:20, February 24, 2012 (UTC) Well, if it appears in anime later as an expansion of the fight scene then I guess it should be given some canonical credibility just like the Anko receiving Curse Mark scene. --Elveonora (talk) 00:51, February 24, 2012 (UTC) Not actually a legacy The current section about the Legacy of Hashirama Senju http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hashirama_Senju#Legacy is very awkward. Of the 5 paragraphs, only the last one actually talks about something that Hashirama Senju left behind. The other 4 talk about how people coveted his powers and performed genetic manipulation to get said powers. The dictionary defines legacy as: # An amount of money or property left to someone in a will. # (a) Anything handed down from the past, as from an ancestor or predecessor. (b) Something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past. © Something handed down by a predecessor. (d) Something that is a part of your history or which stays from an earlier time. (e) Something such as a tradition or problem that exists as a result of something that happened in the past. (f) Something that someone has achieved that continues to exists after they stop working or die. As you can see, the majority of that section doesn't fit the section heading. You wouldn't say that the legacy of Orochimaru's parents are Orochimaru's experiments. Or that the Yondaime's legacy is the hatred that the villagers have/had for his son. So...shouldn't this be split into 2 sections?--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 17:14, March 7, 2012 (UTC) :Although definitions C-F basically defines everything in Hiashirama's legacy section, I don't see a need to be so technical. I'm not too sure why you'd even want to bring this up. A legacy is anything that a person leaves behind- simple enough; the section is being used for post-death events, that's all.--Cerez365™ 17:18, March 7, 2012 (UTC) ::Actually, the primary meaning of the word legacy is synonymous to inheritance. The secondary meaning basically tells you how legacy differs from inheritance. I've put definitions A--F together from a few online dictionaries...and you are right that they all convey the thought that it is something that Hashirama Senju left behind (in this context). Except that the only persons that Hashirama Senju left his DNA to are his children and grandchildren. His enemies have stolen his DNA to get his powers. I don't think that legacy is the right word to use. But if you rename the section to After Death there wouldn't be a problem either.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:37, March 7, 2012 (UTC) :::The word 'legacy' is not just what you physically or genetically leave behind after your death, it is also how the people think of you after your death. Everything that is in the Legacy section fits the word perfectly fine. I see no reason to chance the title. —ShounenSuki (talk | | translations) 19:53, March 7, 2012 (UTC) ::::@ShounenSuki: I put the dictionary entry in for a reason. It doesn't mention physically or genetically. Neither do I(!). The only thing that actually fits the section title is the Will of Fire bit. And I didn't dispute that(!). ::::Furthermore, if you read the secondary meanings, definitions A--C are remarkably similar to Hiden. Definitions D--E form a more generational definition of the word. Definition F is a mix of the other two. ::::Which means that you're wrong; you're confusing it with public perception (which I admit can influence how people think about your legacy). The Will of Fire is a philosophy that Hashirama left behind---his legacy---but it doesn't mean that everyone values that philosophy. ::::Basically, if Hashirama had made a clone of himself it could be his legacy. If someone else makes a clone of you, it's not your legacy. You could think of your own children as your legacy, but you don't think of your own corpse as your legacy. In this case everything is even worse, because those people used his DNA---his powers---to fight against everything he stood for. They were the opposite of the Will of Fire. I can't be more clear than that.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 22:09, March 7, 2012 (UTC) Like I think I said before, your nitpicking over what the word "legacy" means is entirely unnecessary when for one, it's just a heading and two, it's exactly what a legacy is regardless of whether or not he wants it to be. Tobirama probably never intended to be looked down on for creating the Edo Tensei but people curse him for it either way.—Cerez365™ 22:17, March 7, 2012 (UTC) :Here, everything that happens because of the character or had some lasting effect to others because of the character goes under Legacy. In the case of the First, the Will of Fire, Yamato, and Kabuto's enhancements, all count under the "Legacy" heading. Legacy is the best word we can come up with for such as section because "Post-Death" or something like that sounds very un-encyclopedic.--'TheUltimate3' ~Keeper of Lore~ 22:23, March 7, 2012 (UTC) @Cerez365: I never said that a person's legacy only consists of the positive things. But the difference is, Tobirama actually invented Edo Tensei. Hashirama didn't invent the genetic Wood Release power-ups. So. it's not nitpicking; it's arguing about proper word choice. @TheUltimate3: Even according to your definition I'm having trouble understanding it. The only "lasting effect to others" that somewhat supports the argument is other people's desire to have Wood Release. But that's like saying that a billionaire's legacy is the fact that a huge number of people envy them (or hate them). Anyway, I get what you (TheUltimate3) are trying to say. And if there were 3 paragraphs that would describe his actual legacy, and say 3 paragraphs that don't really fit, I probably would not be arguing. Then I'd probably agree that it's the best word we can come up with. But it's 1(!) paragraph about his actual legacy---which is at the end too---and 4(!) paragraphs that talk about the fact that power hungry people desire his Wood Release. It also states that 59 dead children due to Orochimaru's experiments are Hashirama's legacy. Not to mention that the section starts with: :Because of the ''legacy of the Senju who are said to be direct descendants of the Sage of the Six Paths and the kekkei genkai that Hashirama possessed, his DNA became highly coveted.'' while it actually talks about the heritage of the Senju. Call the section Biological clones and genetic experiments for all I care. Just don't call it something it isn't.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 00:34, March 8, 2012 (UTC) I'm sorry, arguing over what a section should be called can be deemed nothing but unnecessary nitpicking. It's a simple thing: For all intents and purposes of the wikia, anything that is done/effect a person has on others or plot/anything done with this person's corpse or anything that someone might take from the aforementioned corpse and do with it after the person in question's death be it voluntary or involuntary, purposeful or accidental, falls under the broad, generic heading of " Legacy " I really don't see a reason to be making this into an issue.--Cerez365™ 00:51, March 8, 2012 (UTC) Classification Why is he classificated as a medical nin? I thought kage would be more important to mention... :Kage was his rank. Jacce | Talk | 17:29, March 10, 2012 (UTC) ::Kage is a rank not a classification. He was stated to be able to use medical ninjutsu in the manga. Though I am sceptic about whether or not that really made him a medical-nin. Did not Tsunade create the organization in Konoha/class of a ninja that are known as Medical Ninja ? I remember when she asked the Konoha council to give permission to train such ninja. Thus the term "medical ninja" was used from Tsunade and later on unless Im wrong. Hashirama being able to heal his own wounds does not make him a medical ninja. --Elveonora (talk) 17:53, March 10, 2012 (UTC) I don't recall that instance particularly well, but what Tsunade wanted was for every team to have a medical-nin. I understood that moment as medical-nin existing, though few in number, and not mandatory to be in every team. She didn't create the category, she just advocated for a greater focus in training and employing medical ninja. Omnibender - Talk - 19:02, March 10, 2012 (UTC) :Yes she advocated for more of them to be trained and field medics to be added to every team as a way of increasing survival rates. To me it sounds like she revolutionised that aspect of medical ninja(dom O.o) not the idea of medical ninja since there always seemed to be hospitals.--Cerez365™ 19:17, March 10, 2012 (UTC) But should we list him as a med-nin just cause he could heal himself ? Unless we see him healing others I don't think so ... and even if then, Krain can heal others but she ain't a med-nin. Med-nin is a ninja specialization.--Elveonora (talk) 23:16, March 10, 2012 (UTC) :I know it's a bit strange, but I don't see any reason not to add him as a med-nin when I think about it. Karin heals people yes, but unlike Hashirama she's never been stated to use medical ninjutsu — which is what a medical nin does regardless of whom it is that they heal. Chiyo for example is a puppeteer but she still falls under the classification "medical-nin" even if it wasn't what she was renown for.--Cerez365™ 23:31, March 10, 2012 (UTC) i think we're being slightly to hasty when we call him a medical ninja despite what madara said. we have to make the distinction between being a medical ninja ( meaning you could also heal other people) and having regenerative properties (like kurama cloak naruto). so far it has only been stated by madara that "he could heal himself without using handsigns which sounds more like regeneration instead of actual medical ninjutsu.-- :Madara never said anything about regeneration. In the conversation, he berated Tsunade's medical ninjutsu skills while comparing them to Hashirama's technique's' (pages 14-15 chpt 576). Just because a medical nin may heal themselves, doesn't mean it's not medical ninjutsu. For all we know Hashirama may (or may not) have used his abilities to heal others. Madara was simply speaking about his battle specifically where four persons were involved — obviously he's not going to heal Kurama and we don't know exactly when Mito arrived on the scene. There are persons who are not main sensory types for example but are classified as such because they have the ability to do so.--Cerez365™ 11:29, March 11, 2012 (UTC) Contract Seal It's my understanding that the OVA from Naruto Shippuden Storm Generations is considered anime only cannon, as Madara has Wind release from his use of it in the OVA. So my question is, should Contract Seal be added to Hashirama? He appears to use it around the 4:45 mark by the vid I watched of it. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:16, March 12, 2012 (UTC) I'm not sure if this should be listed as an OVA/OAV. It is an original animated video, but it was meant for the game. I'm really not sure how to approach this because a lot of the cutscenes in the game, which were retellings, did not follow the established canon. Diamonddeath (talk) 05:53, March 16, 2012 (UTC) Strength of a Hundred Technique Madara said that the this technique can used and Hashirama!! it means that Hashirama too can use this technique? :From what I read, Madara said that this technique was similar to Hashirama's ability. Jacce | Talk | 05:02, March 15, 2012 (UTC) It was just similar ... Tsunade created this technique and Madara never heard of it --Elveonora (talk) 16:39, March 15, 2012 (UTC) Tailed Beasts Did he have them against Madara when battling him or took control of them later ?--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, June 9, 2012 (UTC) :I think by the time of the battle, they were already given out to the other villages. Though it would seem that some were in the wild(?) since Kumo made an attempt on capturing Kurama.--Cerez365™ (talk) 23:15, June 9, 2012 (UTC) So he couldn't have used them against Madara then ?--Elveonora (talk) 23:40, June 9, 2012 (UTC) :Dunno. With the little information we have, anything's possible.--Cerez365™ (talk) 23:53, June 9, 2012 (UTC) Power? just needed clarification hashirama is said to have such great powers but wen u look at how madara is fightin rite now and wen u look at hashirama's fight against the third the power difference seems huge even though hashirama is well known to be stronger than madara do u get y this is? :I believe Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was flawed or something to that effect as said by Kabuto.--Cerez365™ (talk) 10:22, July 13, 2012 (UTC) ::Orochimaru erased Hashirama's personality, and had their battle was limited by the barrier that kept others out. Omnibender - Talk - 20:21, July 13, 2012 (UTC) You must remember that a user is in control of the Edo's action. Orochimaru simply didn't know all of their capabilities, while Madara was given a green light from Kabuto to do as he please--Elveonora (talk) 20:41, July 13, 2012 (UTC) that does make more sense :)-- Maternal Grandfather? Is it possible that Hashirama is Tsunade's maternal grandmother? I remember seeing when Tsunade met Hashirama she was baby, there was a woman holding her who bear a great resemblance to Hashirama. I assume that woman is Tsunade's mother, therefore that would make the woman Hashirama's daughter. So does this mean that Hashirama is Tsunade's maternal grand father?--Black Ronin8 (talk) 12:07, July 31, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8 :The image you're referring to is inaccurate, that is why it's not used here. Hashirama would have been long since dead before Tsunade was born. As for whether or not he could be her maternal grandfather, yes anything is possible.--Cerez365™ (talk) 12:10, July 31, 2012 (UTC) Ah, I should've realized that that, lol. And did you notice that the woman in that image almost resembles Mito, to some degree?--Black Ronin8 (talk) 12:40, July 31, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8 :She does, I suppose but Mito wouldn't be that old and Hashirama still looking that young however.--Cerez365™ (talk) 12:44, July 31, 2012 (UTC) :: I'm afraid to say it's very accurate, Cerez. Why you ask? 'Cause it was shown in the episode where Jiraiya and Naruto found Tsunade and Shizune. --X29 17:20, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :::I think he means that it's inaccurate in relation to the manga. I don't even recall an image like that in the manga. Omnibender - Talk - 17:39, August 3, 2012 (UTC) ::::Thank you, Third Lord Admin. In that case, it's not really accurate,. But I'm sure Kishimoto authorized it. --X29 17:48, August 3, 2012 (UTC) Thanks for the edit Omni, it confuses me when people reply to the middle of a topic. Besides, I don't think it's mentioned in "anime-manga differences" how is it? Not only: * Hashirama was dead when Tsunade was a baby * Mito was likely about the same age as him * The only explanation I can come up with: Mito was aging older due to messed up Uzumaki genes, and Hashirama is there as a ghost. * Seriously, it's a continuity error and if the lady is supposed to be Mito, it's GROSS as well... I don't think Hashi was into grannies. @K29, dunno if to reply "stop trolling" or "I see what you did there, lol" I know that Kishimoto is a perv, but this is too much even for him... LOL--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :Lady, I meant that Kishi authorized this picture to be allowed, not what your mind thinks of. --X29 17:54, August 3, 2012 (UTC) And you know that because... Kishi can't sit in the laps of the animation studio. He has no control over what they fuck up.--Elveonora (talk) 18:09, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :Language lady, and please, he doesn't have to be there. I'm pretty sure they contact his work place and ask for permission on what they do........ or something like that. --X29 18:11, August 3, 2012 (UTC) Uhm, I meant that if Tsunade was alive when Hashirama (who died before the First Shinobi World War) then she'd have to be older than 50. I used to think it was a usable image but Shounensuki discredited the timeline of the image/event.--Cerez365™ (talk) 18:49, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :Hiruzen was present during the First Shinobi World War, and he looked like he was in his 20s. And by the time of the series, he was 69. So, Tsunade's age's sounds suitable for me. --X29 18:55, August 3, 2012 (UTC) ::I'm not a very big fan of timelining because my brain can't handle it and I do wish that I could find the discussion Shounen had about the image but I haven't been able to. Any way, Tobirama died before SWWI just to note, not during it, which means he could have died when Hiruzen was still a child, so I don't think you can use that as a benchmark for her being around during that time. Still, I dunno.--Cerez365™ (talk) 19:24, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :::My dear Cerez, my dear Cerez, you're mistaking the two Hokages. Hashirama, the one with the black hair, red armour and with the Wood Style Ninjutsu, is the first Hokage, while Tobirama, the one with the white hair, blue armour and the expert on Water Style Ninjutsu, Kenjutsu (In animé) and Space-Time Ninjutsu, is the second Hokage. Yes, Hashi''rama died before SWWI, but I'm pretty sure it was before it with a little while, since Hiruzen was alive during the reign of ''Hashi''rama, and I'm pretty sure ''Tobi''rama's reign wasn't that long. --X29 19:30, August 3, 2012 (UTC) ::::No, I have my Hokage straight. I don't believe either Hokage ruled for very long because of the era they were in, but I'm referring to this time frame when I say that Hashirama could have died soon after that meaning Tsunade who is almost 20 years younger than Hiruzen(?) would have either been in a womb somewhere at most or not even a thoughtof as yet when her grandfather died.--Cerez365™ (talk) 19:42, August 3, 2012 (UTC) @X26 * What's with the language? * I'm a guy, stop hitting on me. -TIMELINE * Hiruzen, Danzo and others were 22-23 during the First Shinobi War. * The Sannin were almost 52 (late 51) in Part I. and are about 18 years younger than Hiruzen was. * Tsunade in that image looks 1 year old, Hashirama was long dead during the end of Tobirama's reign. * Hashirama has died when Hiruzen, Danzo and staff were about 12, and during the time of that Tsunade image, 19 years old. * Thus Hashirama was dead for like 7 years and according to anime, appeared there as a ghost.--Elveonora (talk) 19:45, August 3, 2012 (UTC) Loooool at you two. Ah love is in the ai-I mean... 1 year old? at least 3 '~' So that still leaves him dead for 5 years.--Cerez365™ (talk) 19:48, August 3, 2012 (UTC) 1-3, the point stays, Hashirama was dead during her birth already. Why isn't it added in anime-manga differences though?--Elveonora (talk) 19:59, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :@Elveonora :Apologies! The username gave me the impression that you were a girl, but it's kinda your fault for not listing yourself as a male. And I wasn't hitting on you in the slightest. And I think Hashirama was alive when she was a kid, but died soon after. As for the language, you should watch your language.The F and C and S words. :@Cerez :This isn't funny, mate. I have a girlfriend, and I'm pretty sure it'll tear her apart if she ever knew I was hitting on some other girl (Not you, Elveonora), which I'm not. :--X29 20:22, August 3, 2012 (UTC) * Apology accepted, even thought I'm sure you were aware all along that I'm a guy. * I'm not obliged to list personal information here. * Just now you were proven wrong, so even if it's cute that you think that, the canon says otherwise. * You keep your bird and reptile analogies and anti-perv genes, and I will express in my own way. * Yeah, it will tear her apart that you are hitting on a guy. --Elveonora (talk) 20:29, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :*Yes, but it's not very personal, and it'll help to not cause anymore confusion like this. But I'm not telling you that you '''must'. Just suggesting it to you. :*The canon didn't say anything like that. If it did, I wouldn't be talking about it unless I didn't know of it being mentioned. :*I'm afraid that every time you use wrong language, I'll have to...... alert you, shall we say, since I can't find any other word. :*Which I wasn't. :--X29 20:39, August 3, 2012 (UTC) ShounenSuki sensei's timeline uses manga chapters and databooks as the source. I, and many others have calculated it many times. Even sensei himself said so, if you can't trust his nor mine word for that, then look things up yourself. Since then, there really isn't any point in this discussion. By the way, it went offtopic "_"--Elveonora (talk) 20:42, August 3, 2012 (UTC) :What does Fourth Lord Admin has to do with this? And are you sure that Forth Lord Admin is a guy? --X29 20:46, August 3, 2012 (UTC) Not sure if lack of reading comprehension, ignorance, or just bored and trolling. The topic is over, period. Unless you can prove otherwise using the material available, not your opinions. Hard to tell if you are being serious or sarcastic now, by the way we aren't on forums here so cut the crap. I don't care if Suki Sensei has a **** or a ***** it changes nothing.--Elveonora (talk) 20:56, August 3, 2012 (UTC)